Comments on Farine: Building a levain "à la Gérard": Steps 2 & 3... an...

Yes, there are different types of malt and the one...

2010-12-12T07:40:03.923-08:00

Yes, there are different types of malt and the one that should be used here is diastatic malt powder. Malt flour and malt syrup just wouldn't do the trick.
Re: the behavior of the levain. What you describe sounds a lot like the problem I had at Gérard's bakery when starting my levain. Everything was going extremely well, the levain was alive and bubbly and all of the sudden it flatlined on us (see the post above). If it had happened to me here at home, I think I would have fed the levain all freshly milled whole grains for a couple of times and see what happened then.
I don't know that the levain would start well at cool temperatures but I know that in my house, the mature levain does just as well in the winter when it is 64°F inside (55°F during the night) than in the summer when it's around 78°. It just takes more time to do it.

The room is about 77degrees and yes, I am using ma...

2010-12-11T18:04:46.002-08:00

The room is about 77degrees and yes, I am using malt. Are there different types of malt? Is there such thing as a 'bug' in one of the ingredients or steps? Also, if the temperature were much cooler than 75-80 then would the growth just take longer or would it turn liquidy and spread to the sides of the container?

Thank you so much for your reply!

Hello jjones, sorry you are having this trouble. F...

2010-12-11T05:06:54.027-08:00

Hello jjones, sorry you are having this trouble. From a distance it is really hard to say what might be going on. I take it you have used malt as recommended by Gérard. The only variable I can think of at this point would the temperature. Is your levain kept at around 75-80° F or at a much cooler temperature?

MC, I am building this levain and though the init...

2010-12-11T02:03:48.117-08:00

MC,

I am building this levain and though the inital chef is sucessful and cracks and seems lively, after the second build, there is no growth. I'm grinding the berries fresh and I've got good water and AP flour. What could be causing this to happen, I've tried several times.

Thanks

Thank you very much for the information about the ...

2010-04-11T08:39:34.266-07:00

Thank you very much for the information about the starter culture amount that should not be lower than 100g.
That greatly improves aroma and flavour in particular, as well as overall qualities of my bread. I used to maintain small amounts of starters in both liquid and firm forms that were not more than 100g, and I had been not totally happy with the breads, feeling that they were missing something.
When I researched matters about aroma and flavours, I found a lot of other techniques such as retarding, combination of flours, etc… But none of them really worked for my bread. Now I’m very convinced with the mass effect thing in sourdough bread baking.
Thanks again for your very interesting Blog!

Thank you very much for the information about the ...

2010-04-11T08:34:44.826-07:00

Thank you very much for the information about the starter culture amount that should not be lower than 100g.
That greatly improves aroma and flavour in particular, as well as overall qualities of my bread. I used to maintain small amounts of starters in both liquid and firm forms that were not more than 100g, and I had been not totally happy with the breads, feeling that they were missing something.
When I researched matters about aroma and flavours, I found a lot of other techniques such as retarding, combination of flours, etc… But none of them really worked for my bread. Now I’m very convinced with the mass effect thing in sourdough baking.
Thanks again for your very interesting Blog!

AK

MS, I am so glad you are trying out Gérard's f...

2010-02-08T16:08:50.507-08:00

MS, I am so glad you are trying out Gérard's formula. Yes, you can scale it up or down as needed. The only thing you need to keep in mind is not to go too low on the levain amounts. G says that under 100g levain, you really lose some of the mass effect and the loss in aromas is perceptible. So I do one-build instead of three, and it works fine. Keep me posted on how it goes.
Also, if you have access to a home-mill, try the freshly milled flour version. It is truly fantastic.

MC -- Thanks so much for this wonderful website. I...

2010-02-08T12:02:50.141-08:00

MC -- Thanks so much for this wonderful website. I'm in the midst of creating a batch of his chef levain. I've cobbled together - from your various entries and Shiao-Ping's description - what I hope is a helpful recipe (of sorts) for Gerard's chef and three-levain bread, putting it all together in one place for the sake of convenience. (It takes up where your levain formula leaves off.) I would greatly appreciate your reviewing it for accuracy, as much as any of this can be described as accurate. My assumption is that the dough can be scaled back to any degree, as long as the proportions are maintained.

Once again, many thanks for this website, which has given at least one serious home baker more avenues to explore. MS

* Mixed flours from freshly milled organic whole berries : 30% spring wheat, 30% hard red winter wheat, 30% spelt and 10% rye. If no spring wheat is available, use all hard red winter wheat. Gérard uses spring wheat (which has more protein than winter wheat) in his culture in order to boost the levain's mechanical capabilities.

Directions:

A & A1 as described in levain formula, above. Gather culture into a ball, flatten slightly and place in a sealed container, without flour coating. Let ripen overnight at 81˚F. When tripled in bulk, proceed to A2.

A2: Blend 200g ripe A1 culture (discard the balance) with 250g water at 86˚F. Combine 400g flours, add diluted culture, mix briefly, mix in 1g salt, and gather culture into ball, as above. Place in sealed container, without flour coating. Let ripen for 4 hours at 81˚F. When tripled in bulk, proceed to A3.

A3: Blend 200g ripe A2 culture (discard the balance) with 220g water at 86˚F. Combine 400g flours, add diluted culture, mix briefly, mix in 1g salt, and gather culture into ball, as above. Place in sealed container. Let ripen for 4 hours at 81˚F. The levain chef is ready to use when it has tripled in bulk and a piece of levain floats when dropped in a large bowl of water.

Dough.

First levain: 300 g levain chef (retain and sustain balance of levain chef through regular feedings), 400 g water and 700 g flours (70% all-purpose and 30% freshly milled whole grains as described above) = 1400 g. Combine all ingredients, mix in 14 g (1%) salt. Let rise, covered until tripled in bulk, about 7 hours at 81˚F.

Second levain: 1400 g first levain + 800 g water + 1500 flours (70% all-purpose and 30% freshly milled whole grains as described above) = 3.7 kg. Combine all ingredients, mix in 37 g (1%) salt. Let rise, covered until tripled in bulk, about 6 - 7 hours at 81˚F.

Third levain: 3700g second levain + 2800 g water (2650 g in the summer as I don't have air-conditioning) + 5000 g flours (70% all-purpose and 30% freshly milled whole grains as described above) = 11.5 kg Combine all ingredients, mix in 115 g (1%) salt. Let rise, covered until tripled in bulk, about 3.5 - 4 hours at 81˚F.

This 11.5 kg of levain will inoculate about 48 kg of flour.

Dough: Mix 48 kg of flours (70% all-purpose and 30% freshly milled whole grains as described above) with 38.4 kg of water (80% hydration). Autolyse for 30 – 40 minutes. Add 11.5 kg of levain and 979 g (1%) salt. Combine just until smooth. Yields about 99 kg (218 lbs.) of dough.

Primary fermentation: Up to four hours at 81˚F. Let rise, covered until tripled in bulk, folding as required.

Secondary fermentation: Up to three hours as loaves at 81˚F.

Baking: Steam. 30-40 minutes at about 450˚F.

My goodness, the flour sounds wonderful. You know...

2010-02-02T22:46:22.084-08:00

My goodness, the flour sounds wonderful. You know Poilane uses T80 (in Paris) and T85 (in Leon) for their signature Miches. Don't trouble sending me the specs through email. I'll study your Pavé au levain first.
Thanks.
Shiao-Ping

Hi, SP, I truly couldn't tell you as I have ne...

2010-02-02T21:56:39.591-08:00

Hi, SP, I truly couldn't tell you as I have never baked in France. It says T90 on the label but the specs indicate that it is closer to 100 or 110. I took a pic of the label and of the specs before I left for the West Coast and I thought I had copied the files to my small computer but I hadn't. As soon as I get home, I'll email them to you if you like.
What I can tell you is that it is the most gorgeous flour I have ever worked with, blond with flecks of bran and a tiny bit grainy. Just magnificent...See DonD's comment under Pavé au levain.

HI MC Do you think the high-extraction flour you ...

2010-02-02T19:18:28.167-08:00

HI MC

Do you think the high-extraction flour you use is similar to the French T80 or T85 flour?

Thanks
Shiao-Ping

Hello, Doughboy, and thank you for checking out th...

2010-02-02T07:39:34.333-08:00

Hello, Doughboy, and thank you for checking out the Gérard posts on Farine. Yes, indeed, the soft part of the first build get discarded. G has no further use for them.
G would not agree that maintenance is an individual choice according to lifestyle but then his life is dedicated to bread-making, so in his case one flows into the other. He would say however that the feeding schedule is dictated by the levain. I keep my house at 64 F in the winter and thought I might get away with one feeding a day but my starter triples in the space of 12 hours, so I feed it twice a day. If I wanted to feed it less often, I'd have to try and keep it at a lower temperature (say, maybe around 50-55 F). G strongly advises against putting it in the fridge. Refrigerators are usually too cold for the flavorful acids to survive.
My levain is kept at 65%. If I want it more liquid, I just take some out and use more water on that particular build, but the chef itself is always at 65%. I also keep a separate liquid starter (100% hydration) which is fed 50% all-purpose flour and 50% high-extraction flour, both organic. The taste is quite different.
Twice a day, I do a refreshment using the following amounts : 100g levain, 130g water, 130g organic AP flour, freshly milled flours (30g whole wheat, 30g whole spelt, 10g whole rye) and 0.5g fine sea salt. G recommends not going under 100g for the culture as you lose the important benefits of the mass effect.
There are many good books out there: off the top of my head I can suggest Breads by Jeff Hamelman, The Breads from the La Brea Bakery by Nancy Silverton and Bread Baking, An Artisan's Perspective by Dan DiMuzio. These three would be an excellent place to start. You might want to check your library or your local bookstore for more titles. Good luck to you and please let me know how your baking goes!

Dear MC, As a new sourdough enthusiast, I have en...

2010-02-02T05:41:19.409-08:00

Dear MC,

As a new sourdough enthusiast, I have enjoyed every minute of learning from Gerard's methods of preparing levain and his bread making techniques. I have followed the 3 steps for preparing the levain, including video clips and wonder what is done with the soft part after harvesting the dry crust from the first build? Is it discarded or is there a further use for rebuilding another harvest of crust?

As I see from the comments, maintainance is an individual choice, according to lifestyle. Can you suggest a practical feeding schedule, including flour types/amounts to use and water amounts. Would it be correct to say to use a combination of mixed flours and and all-purpose flour as shown in the "culture formula" chart? Is the hydration kept at 65%? How can one move from this basic levain to a levain requirement of 100% hydration or any level in-between?

Where can I find a good source for understanding the preparation and use of different starters and matching them for different bread preparations?

Thank you

Thank you. It just goes to show that if we are wi...

2010-01-27T02:40:44.453-08:00

Thank you. It just goes to show that if we are willing to take the time to experiment and test our process, we may find many things that we don't know about.

Shiao-Ping

Hi again, Shiao-Ping, I ran your two questions by ...

2010-01-26T18:32:30.508-08:00

Hi again, Shiao-Ping, I ran your two questions by Gérard and here are his answers:
1) The wild yeast may well develop all over the dough but he would be afraid of rot taking over. So he'd rather not chance it.
2) He found out through testing. He did build one, then took the wet part and made the second build with it, and took the dry part and made another second build with it. Got 40% more volume with the dry part, from which he concluded that there is much more wild yeast in the crust.

RE: highest concentration of wild yeasts on the cr...

2010-01-26T07:10:42.349-08:00

RE: highest concentration of wild yeasts on the crust

That is very interesting. You did say that in your post. (1) Would you say that if you leave the first build longer, then the wild yeasts will have penetrated inwards to permeate the whole dough? Or, put another way, the wild yeast will have developed all over the dough? After all, there are bakers who leave their first build 2 to 3 days before they do the second build! (2) How did Gerard find out about this, through lab test or simply through experience? I don’t want to be too technical, but I just found it fascinating.

Thank you.
Shiao-Ping

Shiao-Ping, Gérard uses the crust (and the crust o...

2010-01-26T05:11:20.198-08:00

Shiao-Ping, Gérard uses the crust (and the crust only) at the end of the first build because the crust is where you find the highest concentration of wild yeasts.

Hi MC, thank you for the answer to my question. N...

2010-01-25T18:50:25.986-08:00

Hi MC, thank you for the answer to my question. Now, you mention (again) about Gerard's using the crust of his first levain build to further build on it. At the time when I read it I wasn't sure if I understood the rationale. Now, first of all, the first build was simply flour and water, the "levain" had not really formed yet because the "yeast" (ie, the culture) had not really started. With just flour and water and at the hydration that Gerard was doing, there would be a thick and hard "crust" forming. Now, can you elaborate on the reasoning of using this part, rather than the "whole" of the dry dough, please.
Thank you.
Shiao-Ping

@Judd, Gérard uses the crust of his first build, n...

2010-01-25T08:52:47.135-08:00

@Judd, Gérard uses the crust of his first build, not the last one. He couldn't even if he wanted to as there is no crust on his levain after the first build (when the levain "embryo" is buried in coarsely milled grain).
@Shiao-Ping, yes, "Faire son pain" has a lot pictures and shows a bunch of regional breads. However there is no comparison between that book and Hamelman's. Jeff's book is much much more interesting to us. "Faire son pain" was written with 1970's housewives in mind. You would find it too basic.
As for "Le Pain par Poilâne", I bought it last year. It is a beautiful book in many ways and full of interesting bread trivia and I like the chapter on regional breads but there is no chapter on wild yeast (only on breads made with commercial yeast) and, even more to the point, I would hesitate greatly to recommend it to a non-French-speaking reader. I actually went to the store in Paris and asked whether they had an English version as I wanted to get it for an American friend of mine, and the answer was negative. They didn't even say that a translation was in the works... Sorry about that!

Hi MC... I came back for another read...It stuck i...

2010-01-25T06:45:48.564-08:00

Hi MC...
I came back for another read...It stuck in my head that he uses the crust of his last build....I find that very interesting! It almost seems counter intuitive!I am going to try your new dedicated bread today...I ran out of my last Miche! One has to have bread some around!
Au revoir..
Judd

Hi MC This may sound like a funny question but I ...

2010-01-24T04:53:26.831-08:00

Hi MC

This may sound like a funny question but I am curious to know if Lionel Poilane's book, “Faire son pain“ 1982, has a lot of pictures in it and, also, how you like the book. Do you think the book is out-dated? How does it compare with Hamelman's clssic bread book, "Bread"?
Thank you.
Shiao-Ping
p.s. By the way, Poilane's on-line store has a new book, "Le Pain par Poilane," 2005, which is co-authored by Lionel's daughter. It looks like a good book to get.

Shiao-Ping, it was A3. I changed "third"...

2010-01-19T04:58:16.592-08:00

Shiao-Ping, it was A3. I changed "third" to "fourth" in the post. Thanks for pointing out the inconsistency.
Re: Poilâne library. Yes, I was referring to the first two books on the list. Gérard has lent them to me though. I am going through the Guide right now.

MC, is there a typo where your said, "...the ...

2010-01-18T02:20:38.344-08:00

MC, is there a typo where your said, "...the third feeding (A3 in the formula chart). This time, we didn't use any malt and the whole-grain flour was carefully sifted..." A3 should read A2?

MC You mentioned the "out-of-print books by L...

2010-01-17T23:53:26.036-08:00

MC
You mentioned the "out-of-print books by Lionel Poilâne" at Gerard's bakery. I came across some information about the collection at Poilâne Bread Library. It says that their collection "... trace the relationship between man and bread across time and civilisations" here: http://www.poilane.fr/pages/en/michemore_culture_bibliotheque.php. Next time when you are in Paris, it might be of interest to you to pay them a visit.
Is this book("Guide de l’amateur de pain par Poilâne”, 1981")one of the out-of-print books you saw at Gerard's?
Shiao-Ping

A2 feeding was a "normal" feeding (i.e. ...

2010-01-15T07:06:47.002-08:00

A2 feeding was a "normal" feeding (i.e. just the two flours, one of them freshly milled, water and salt). It is only at stage 1 that the disk is covered with a coarse grain blend and it is only at stage 2 that the crust is used. After that, there is no longer any crust as the levain is kept in a tightly closed container, like any other dough.
Hope this clarifies the process...